Dr. Jonathan Haidt: How Smartphones & Social Media Impact Mental Health & The Realistic Solutions | Huberman Lab • Podcast Notes (2024)

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Key Takeaways

• Teens in America are spending about 5 hours per day on social media
• The loss of children playing outdoors breaks into three acts: (1) Loss of community and trust; (2) Removal of play-based childhood because of lack of trust in neighbors; (3) Since kids are inside, they fill time with smartphones and tablets
• Childhood is largely happening alone on a screen which turns social interactions into fear-based interactions
  • Low stake mistakes are a key element of play – if you make a mistake playing with your friends outside, it’s no big deal; if you make a mistake on social media, you could become the laughingstock of the school within minutes
  • Without free play with other kids, development is drastically altered: Play is how kids learn to solve problems, interact with others in real-time, squash conflict, navigate different personalities
• Some of the most profound changes in puberty are the development of self, role in society, and impulse control by the forebrain – with smartphones and social media, kids readily have access to all urges and can choose how to present their life (which is mostly performative)
  • Plasticity is sensitive to punishment, but with social dynamics, it’s a reward that leads to plasticity – if a kid gets a reinforcing experience online, the drive to do that behavior is strengthened
• The increase in availability and accessibility to p*rn has altered boys’ ability to engage in healthy courtship
  • It’s not just the extremeness of p*rn that’s the problem, it’s also the short-time scale of the process (as opposed to courtship which is slow and effortful) and no learning; the whole dopamine system is trained to be observational instead of participatory
• 4 recommendations for smartphone use in kids: (1) No smartphones before high school; (2) No social media before 16; (3) No phones in the classroom; (4) Encourage more independence and free play in the real world
  • Give kids exciting adventures; the key is collective action – talk with other parents and do it together so the kids do not feel like it’s a punishment
  • Parent tip: A summer camp that doesn’t allow phones is a great way to detox your child in a fun environment
• Regain control of your attention! What is so important that you’re ready to be interrupted at any moment?
  • There is growing disgust among parents watching their kids spend their childhoods on screens – change is coming

Introduction

Dr. Jonathan Haidt, PhD (@jonhaidt), is a professor of social psychology at New York University and bestselling author on how technology and culture impact the psychology and health of kids, teens, and adults.

In this episode, Andrew Huberman and Jonathan Haid discuss the dramatic rise of suicide, depression, and anxiety as a result of replacing a play-based childhood with smartphones, social media, and video games. Listeners will learn the challenges of screen-filled childhoods, the differential impact of smartphones and social media on girls vs boys, and 4 recommendations for healthier smartphone use in kids.

Host: Andrew Huberman (@hubermanlab)

7:30 – The Impact Of Smartphones On Us As A Species

• We’re using our thumbs for writing for the first time in history, though this is the most innocuous thing phone use has done
• Changes in technology often lead to massive gains in knowledge & productivity; in general, connecting people is good – it’s social media that has changed things
• By 2015 the majority of American teens had a smartphone with a camera
  • Instagram was the first social media app you had to have a smartphone for; prior, everything was web-based
• The “Great Rewiring of Childhood” is the period from 2010-2015 when everything about children and teenagers changed
• Smartphone and social media use is an almost an obsessive-compulsive thing; as soon as something gets hard or you get bored, you pick up your phone – imagine being a kid trying to do work and having this access

13:10 – Mental Health Trends In American Youth

• Around 2012 mental health disorders among girls in the U.S. skyrocketed almost 50-100%
  • International data trends are similar but with a slightly delayed timeline
  • Depression and anxiety among boys also increase gradually around this time
• Hospitalizations for depression and self-harm among girls have increased in the U.S., Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, and other developed countries
  • There is correlational and experimental data supporting the rise in social media use to adverse mental health outcomes
• Factors that make social media use damaging for young girls: (1) Time spent on the phone; (2) Specific content; (3) Social dynamics associated with being on the phone vs in-person interactions; (4) Effect of viewing so close to your face; (5) Additional blue light exposure and effects on sleep
• Young people in America are spending about 5 hours per day just on social media – especially on short videos and reels
  • Imagine the information flying at them 35 hours per week, mostly from strangers
• The volume of social media use is incompatible with human development; there is no time to play outdoors and interact with other kids your age in person if you’re anchored to your phone

21:30 – The Degradation Of Play-Based Childhood

• In the 50s and 60s people organized into villages – everyone looked out for each other, watched over one another’s kids, etc.
  • Today we have a loss of community and trust in each other
• In the 1970s crime went through the roof but we still didn’t lose trust in each other
• In the 80s, computers were cool, and being a nerd started being cool; boys were interested in the mechanics of the computer and started to play outside less
• The 90s is the key decade in which we saw a retreat of children playing outside and an increase in the fear of child abduction and child sexual abuse
  • According to FBI statistics, there are only about 100-150 true kidnappings per year in the U.S., it’s almost always the non-custodial parent taking the kids
• People are afraid of whatever is most visible and comes to mind easiest – this is part of why we always want to supervise kids, we fear planes more than cars
• Computers, smartphones, and tablets were a natural byproduct of trying to occupy time since kids were inside more than outside

30:55 – Differences In Girls Vs Boys

• Sex differences in ability between girls/boys and men/women are generally small; sex differences in interest are huge
• People generally fall into one of two groups: (1) High systemizers – people who love maps, programming, and how systems are related; (2) High empathizers – people who want to understand other people and respond appropriately
  • Boys often fall into systemizers – playing video games (especially shooting and war games) drew them into technology and devices; then the leap to p*rn is a stone’s throw
  • Girls tend to be empathizers – connecting on social media drew them into technology and devices; then the collateral damage of social media ensues
• “Effectance” is the desire to be a cause and have an effect on the world; you want to see that the things you do have an effect
  • Boys live more in the physical, mechanical world
  • Girls tend to want to have more of an effect on the social world; girls tend to be more compassionate
• We evolved in nature, and it’s a healthy part of life to love and nurture animals but social media and staying inside have even reduced that

42:00 – Boys Sexual Development & p*rnography

• Boys are starting to watch p*rn younger and younger – this undoubtedly has effects on sexual development
  • If a boy starts watching p*rn at 12 and continues for the next 10+ years, there will be negative effects on relationships, dating, real-life sexual encounters
• Dopamine puts us in a state of focusing and foraging to resolve the gap between how we feel and how we’d like to feel; it’s a currency of pursuit
• p*rnography hits the system fast and creates a big inflection of dopamine; the more rapid the rise, the bigger the crash, then the chase ensues – this is how addiction starts
• When dopamine arrives quickly and without effort, the whole dopamine system becomes wired for short loops – you want it now, and you chase more and more
• p*rn requires very little initial time investment or learning; after ejacul*tion, there’s a dramatic drop in dopamine and prolactin but without any tie to courtship and pursuit or pair bonding
• It used to be novel to stash a Playboy magazine or see one, but now p*rn is at the ready
• It’s not just the extremeness of p*rn that’s the problem, it’s also the short-time scale of the process (as opposed to courtship which is slow and effortful) and no learning; the whole dopamine system is trained to be observational instead of participatory
  • Experiences about sex and pleasure translate less in the real world when you’re conditioned to p*rn and as a result, men are retreating to p*rn and seeing women as distant species they don’t understand
• We evolved the ability to pair bond – courtship is critical; if you’re sexually satisfied because of p*rnography, courtship is drastically altered
• There is a significant shift in dynamics – men are also judged more based on how fast they respond to a text message instead of chivalrous characteristics

56:00 – Conflict Resolution & Social Media

• Gen Z is missing some key dynamics because of the different way they grew up relative to previous generations
• Aggression and cooperation are part of human nature; playing with kids in the neighborhood forces the kids to learn social skills essential for development
  • Play is missing key skills when you’re just playing video games
• Low stake mistakes are a key element of play – if you make a mistake playing with your friends, it’s no big deal; if you make a mistake on social media, you could become the laughingstock of the school within minutes
  • Shame makes kids want to disappear
• Childhood is largely happening alone on a screen – it turns into fear-based interactions
• In real life, there are just a handful of kids who are jerks and the trajectory of their lives is bleak; in the online world, people are performative and get attention when they’re jerks
• Dynamic subordination: The idea that there are social roles, and the more people embrace roles, the better it is for the pack (think of military leaders and their subordinates working together)
  • People are willing to follow because we can work together to face a common threat when there is a trusted leader
  • Males take to hierarchy more readily – sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow depending on the setting

1:14:00 – Phone-Based Childhood & Development

• The increase in suicide among girls is larger; boys have a larger suicide rate
  • Boys tend to jump off a building or use a gun; girls tend to use pills or turn to things that might not lead to death
• The developing brain (through age 25) and body are extremely sensitive, the brain is still finding its way to develop, and the kid is still figuring out how to navigate society
• The circuits are going to develop one way or another, the question is what the thresholds at which dopamine is released – if the stimuli are unhealthy, there is less variability and more difficult reinforcement than if stimuli are healthy
  • We need to shift neural circuits in kids to more adaptive things
• The period surrounding puberty is the most sensitive for identity, learning who you are, and how you relate to others
  • “Puberty is the fastest rate of aging that we ever undergo…in terms of change of the brain…it’s the most profound brain change we undergo.” – Andrew Huberman
  • One of the most profound changes in puberty is the impulse control by the forebrain – if you readily have access to all your urges like kids do now, where do you learn to focus or delay gratification?

1:34:20 – 4 Recommendations For Smartphone Use In Kids

• 1: No smartphones before high school; your child doesn’t need to engage with the whole world and the whole world doesn’t need to reach your child at any time
  • Let your child have a flip phone before that
• 2: No social media before 16. “There is no way to make social media safe for young kids.” – Jonathan Haidt
  • Prestige is gained by posting things that get the most likes; instead of being kids, they’re now brand managers & performing instead of playing
• 3: No phones in the classroom. Why should we let kids have the greatest distraction device ever invented at their disposal when they should be learning?
  • There should be rules to lock phones in lockers or keep them elsewhere outside the classroom
• 4: Encourage more independence and free play in the real world. Kids need adventure and to learn the ability to solve problems amongst themselves

1:43:00 – Tips For Changing Childhood Norms

• The consequences of smartphones are so severe, that we should take them seriously even if the statistics are not as bad as they appear
• We need to change the norms: We need to see smartphones in the hands of kids as bad as cigarettes in the hands of kids
• We need mandates to raise age verification; it’s currently 13 and as long as you can lie about your age there is no further verification
  • Any attempt to regulate social media has been dismissed, largely because there’s just too much money involved with having a captive audience
• Summer camp without phones is the best way to detox the kids from their phone
• Humans are highly social; team sports and religion are highly protective against excessive smartphone use
  • Playing in a band and singing in a choir are also protective
• The power of boredom: Creativity often comes from letting the mind wander without distraction
• Help kids connect with themselves: Kids may not even know they don’t feel good; many admit to not enjoying social media – it’s a compulsion or addiction
• “Awe walk”: Walk in a beautiful environment without headphones, without your phone, and just take it in – we take in way too much

2:11:45 – Regaining Childhood Independence

• Television is not performative, you’re a passive recipient
• It’s important to clean up the content, but that isn’t the answer – kids need social media exposure delayed until past puberty
• Kids are looking to copy the behaviors of their parents – parents need to be aware of what they’re doing as well
• Teens are moving away from the family and more concerned about what their peer group thinks
• Model collective behaviors (like mealtime)

Articles

• Motivation reconsidered: The concept of competence (Perspectives in psychology)
• A Sensitive Period for the Incorporation of a Cultural Meaning System: A Study of Japanese Children Growing Up in the United States (Ethos)

Books

• Bowling Alone: Revised and Updated: The Collapse and Revival of American Community
• The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time
• Biophilia
• Keeping Together in Time: Dance and Drill in Human History
• Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life

Other Resources

• I Know My First Name is Steven (show)
• A Teacher Did All He Could to Keep Kids Off Phones. He’s Quitting in Frustration. (The Wall Street Journal)
• Dacher Keltner (On Being episode)
• Let Grow
• The Anxious Generation
• Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA) bill

Huberman Lab Episodes Mentioned

• Biological Influences On Sex, Sex Differences & Preferences (Podcast Notes here!)
• (Podcast Notes here!)

People Mentioned

• Jeff Lichtman: professor of molecular and cellular biology, Harvard University
• Jean Twenge: author, professor of psychology, San Diego State University
• Steve Jobs: cofounder of Apple Computer Inc.
• Simon Baron-Cohen: professor of developmental psychopathology, University of Cambridge
• Sigmund Freud: founder of psychoanalysis
• Jocko Willink: retired Navy SEAL, author
• Matthew MacDougall: head neurosurgeon at Neuralink
• Edward Chang: professor of neuroscience, University of California San Francisco
• Michael Merzenich: professor emeritus of otolaryngology, University of California San Francisco
• Marshall McLuhan: philosopher, media theory

Huberman Lab :health, life, mental health, popular, smartphones, social media
Notes By Maryann